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Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:46 pm

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:33 pm
Posts: 2

Just purchased a Vagabond and I like to store it in the back of my suv so I don't have to lug it in and out of my studio when shooting on locaton. Low temps in the ATL are now getting into the low 20's and teens overnight.

Will the cold harm the Vagabond short term or long term???

Will the cold deplete the charge faster than storing it at room temp??

How about extreme hot 100+ in summer.....same concerns.

Thanks in advance!!!
Happy New Year everyone!!!




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Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:46 pm

Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:37 pm
Posts: 9

My experience as been that you won't get as many clicks with cold batteries.
Warm temperatures kill overall battery life, no doubt about it.




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Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:41 pm

Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:45 pm
Posts: 43

IIRC, it's a sealed lead acid battery, so anything that effects those types of batteries, such as car batteries, will effect this one too. Generally, extreme cold, and extreme heat effects the battery in a negative way.

I'd say if you park in your garage overnight, then you probably wouldn't have to worry about it in there. If not, I'd say if you want the battery to last, I'd bring it in with you when it's cold/hot.




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Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:31 am

Site Admin
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:43 am
Posts: 5266

If you are using it on location, you should bring it in to charge if it is used at all. Otherwise, it will be affected in the same way as a lawn mower battery or car battery. If it gets really cold, and is still cold on location (or hot in the summer), the efficiency of the battery will decrease.

TS




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Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:38 pm

Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:33 pm
Posts: 38

I live in South Dakota and have been out during the nights here to take photos with my X3200 monolights. I have x5 of the Vagabond I, but they should act the same. For the past four nights I've been out in temps that ranged from 10F below zero to 30F below zero. I had no problems. I've been leaving two of the Vagabonds out in my van overnights for the past two weeks. Most nights it is below zero, sometimes colder than 20 below zero. (You did mean --20 degrees when you were talking about cold, right?) I've not had any problems. There probably are fewer pops in the batteries when they are that cold, but I don't need many for what I do. So I guess you can take it from me, semi-officially, the Vagabond I will work well even at thirty below zero. At least for the two hours I had it out in the snow. Heat is worse on batteries. I don't leave them in the car then (it can hit 108 degrees here in summer.)


Kent in SD




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Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:32 am

Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:03 pm
Posts: 74
Location: Watchung, NJ

This is just a general treatment of sealed lead acid batteries of the type used in the Vagabond system, but it should be useful in helping to get the best service from your batteries.

First, the primary rule to follow is to avoid draining your sealed lead acid batteries flat. They last longer, and retain higher capacity if they are not cycled way down, and if they are charged to capacity quickly thereafter.

Storing them flat (discharged) invites permanent capacity losing chemical changes, and exposes them to the possibility of mechanical damage at sub freezing temps from the formation of ice crystals that do not occur in a charged lead acid battery. Even if you can't help sucking your batteries dry during a shoot, never store them in a discharged state. That goes double when it is very cold.

The nature of lead acid chemistry is such that demanding high current flow in sub freezing temps will result in less apparent capacity, but things should return to normal when temps rise. If you are are shooting heavily on battery power alone in a sub freezing environment, you would be well served to have a charged spare battery set on hand.

Reasonably high temps are not so much a storage issue, as a charging/high current draw issue. You can cause permanent damage to a battery by cooking it while charging. Of course, that has much to do with the charging circuit as well. I'm betting that Paul designed the Vagabond to properly charge it's batteries, but even then, I would be cautious about charging for extended periods in 110 degree weather.

The last note I'd like to pass on is that sealed lead acid batteries do have a limited life, even when given TLC. I maintain about 2,000 batteries of that type alone at my day job, and have found that even in standby mode, with a reasonably smart low current charge maintenance circuit, they start to drop like flies after six years or so. Dry as a bone, and dead as a brick. Keep that lifespan in mind, as even if your mileage varies, a sealed battery will never outlast a good spouse. Batteries that see regular use other than standby tend to have somewhat less of a lifespan on average.

Those are my observations over a decade or so, and the results have been consistent. Still, sealed lead acid batteries offer awesome bang for the buck in terms of energy density, suitability over environmental extremes, reasonable size, and just plain cost economy.

If you beat up your batteries on a regular basis, buy a spare or two to share the load. If your stock battery compliment does everything you need it to do, make a mental note to consider buying a fresh spare battery pack after about 3-4 years of use. Don't buy ahead of time if you won't put it into service within a year or so. Buy sealed lead acid batteries when you need them, not too much before. Unlike lead acid auto batteries that are shipped without electrolyte installed, sealed lead acid batteries start their life clock when they leave the factory.

Enjoy the power!




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Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:53 pm

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:33 pm
Posts: 2

Hey guys!

Thanks for all the good advice on the Vagabond!! Just to be safe, it will be inside for at least the next week or so . It's been really cold here in ATL. High temps just above freezing and it will drop to 12 degrees or so at night over the weekend so I'll play it safe.

A nice added benefit is if we have an ice storm and lose power in the house, I can still make coffee and watch TV with use of the Vagabond!!




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Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:52 pm

Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:33 pm
Posts: 38

It hasn't been 12 above here for a couple of weeks now. My Vagabonds are still sitting out in my van along with all my other camera gear. Will be 30 below again on Friday, so I'll take them out and do some more night shots. My camera batteries will die before my Vagabonds do. I never worry about them.


Kent in SD




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Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:46 am

Site Admin
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:49 am
Posts: 1432

It's the same as leaving your car in this weather. Battery capacity fall when they get real cold. I don't really know at what temperature they will actually freeze - pretty much the same as a car battery.




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Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:55 am

Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:03 pm
Posts: 74
Location: Watchung, NJ

For reference, here is a chart of freezing temps for lead acid batteries at different states of charge put together by the folks at Buchanan.net. The chart didn't maintain format, so the columns are titled "Percent charge", "Specific gravity (of electrolyte)", and "Degrees Fahrenheit (freezing temp). Follow the crooked numbers under the column titles....

Freezing,
Percent Specific Degrees
Charge Gravity Fahrenheit
100 1.265 -75
76 1.225 -35
74 1.200 -17
50 1.150 5
0 1.100 18
<0 1.050 27

As you can see, a fully charged battery isn't likely to freeze in any condition that a human can stand, but if you drive your battery much below 50% of full charge in "Mother in Law" cold weather, your battery might freeze before you can charge it again, and freezing a battery will always shorten it's life, if not kill it outright.

Here is a chart of the self discharge rate of conventional lead acid batteries. This gives you an idea of how quickly charge is lost from fully charged during periods of inactivity with no load. Sealed lead acid batteries tend to lose charge quite a bit slower because of their mechanical/chemical nature, so use it as a rough guide for what to expect from your battery after it sits idle for some time.... This information is from Yuasa battery corp, but other sources claim slightly more conservative self discharge rates;

"Conventional lead-acid batteries discharge at a rate of 1% per day at 77 degrees Fahrenheit. An increase of 18 degrees over the 77 degree baseline doubles the discharge rate, all other factors being equal." A battery might well hold a full charge in winter storage, but it's half dead in 1-2 months without a topping charge indoors, or in hot outside storage. It's all a balancing act when batteries are subjected to serious temperature extremes. I hope it helps to have a reasonable idea of what to expect from your batteries, in your climate.

Stay warm!




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