Paul C. Buff, Inc. Technical Forum

A couple of questions about the White High Output Beauty Dish compatibility with the old WL Ultra Lights:

1) Will the White HOBD fit directly onto the Ultra series lights? Or will I need some special adapter?

2) On the current photo of the HOBD ( http://www.paulcbuff.com/images/product ... t_0111.jpg ), it shows an Alien Bee and the flash tube extends completely inside the body of the dish (as opposed to being recessed away from the dish). Would mounting on an Ultra allow the flash tube to be completely inside the dish similar to how it is with an Alien Bee?

(It appears that many third-party beauty dishes that fit Alien Bee / White Lightning mounts have a speedring that prevents the flash tube from extending inside the dish. I wish to avoid that circumstance)

3) I have heard some people lament the discontinuation of the "original" PCB beauty dish, and I am trying to understand why. Was there a fundamental change in the shape or light output from the previous style dish to the current HOBD one?

4) Should I just go for the Omni Reflector Instead? I mostly want to do portraits / Headshots / Beauty (both indoor and out). I know that Paul said the Omni was primarily designed for sports / distance shooting, but that a beauty dish-like effect can be achieved using the 3-layer diffuser sock. It's just that there just haven't been many reviews or photographic examples of the Omni Reflector being used for Portraits / Headshots / Beauty

5) Assuming I decide on the White HOBD, is there any benefit to purchasing the 3-layer diffusion sock other than reducing the light output for very close light placement / very large aperture use with an Ultra 600? In other words, does the 3-layer sock have any other advantages over the included sock for the HOBD beside reducing the light further?

Thanks in advance.

Yes, all modifiers we offer will fit any of our lights (the old 10,000/5,000 lights not withstanding). Do note, the deflector plate is held in by the umbrella shaft, which is on the bottom of the light in this case. Be sure to tighten sufficiently so the deflector does not roll out of position. It does not take a lot of force to prevent this, but worth noting.



Yes, all of our lights (again, not the 10K/5K's) are designed so the flash tubes sit roughly the same in each of the modifiers. The flash tubes will fit fully inside the beauty dish, just like the Alien Bees.




The original dish was white and heavy. The HOBD was redesigned and released as a silver dish. There was a desire for a white dish still, so we released a white version of the HOBD design. Comparing the old vs new white beauty dishes, there would not be a whole lot of differences in light on subject. It is also easier to use the HOBD's as regular 22" reflectors by not using the deflector.



The Omni certainly has a nice light quality to it. It is a little smaller than the beauty dishes, so it will give a different light with more defined shadow edges. Hard to say one is "better" than another.



The three layer sock will even out the pattern a little better. However, with the Beauty dish with the deflector in place, you wont have the center hot spot anyway. The light reduction is less than a stop vs. a single layer.

Thanks again for all the help.

I will mull over for a little while, but it looks like a white HOBD might be in my immediate future.

Thanks again.

I don't totally agree with Tech Support.

The OMNI with triple diffuser yields exceptionally even "reflector face evenness" while the 22 HOBD (white or silver) with deflector doesn't.

Both offer very good evenness of the pattern falling on the subject.

So we're talking about two different parameters. Reflector face evenness is what is reflected in a subject's eyes as "catchlights", and is important for nice round/even catchlights, or reflections from shiny objects like silverware, wine bottles, etc.

Also, the triple layer diffuser purposely reduces light output about one f stop because these are often used very close to the subject for mood lighting, and most shooters want as wide an aperture as possible - f2 to f4 for decreased depth of field. It can be difficult to get the flashpower of most lights down far enough to achieve this, thus the added one f reduction in the diffuser.

Thank You, Paul:

But I have to warn you that you are making my decision harder to make.

I really do like that classic beauty Dish look (I know it has become somewhat over used because it is so simple for people to throw a beauty dish on a light and fire away).

But I really do like that look a lot.

Although the lower shipping charges, easier transportability, and potential as a "long reach" reflector of the Omni appeals to me as well.

Sigh... decisions, decisions...

For a replica of classic beauty dish look you will need a white 22HOBD White beauty dish with included light blocker. But the "classic" BD look has a dead spot in the center of the catchlights because of the light blocker. Some like it and some don't. Without the blocker, the white 22HOBD will have have a very bright hotspot in the catchlights.

Either the Silver HOBD or the OMNI with sock attached will give you beauty dish style lighting that some like better and some like less (no dead center), with the added versatility of very high output (without the diffuser) for overpowering the sun, etc.

I would give the edge to the OMNI because it's pattern and catchlights are more even with or without the diffuser. See faec pattern and projected patterns for OMNI, with and without diffuser here:
http://www.paulcbuff.com/omni.php

Thank you again, Paul for the explanation.

One last question: to get that classic beauty dish look with an Omni Reflector and an old white lightning ultra, will I have to put on a boom and use a c-stand? In essence, would the omni reflector need to be positioned at the same distance / angle as a beauty dish would? Or would the omni reflector give me more working room and still retain the beauty dish look?

I guess I forgot that I don't have a c-stand / boom arm.

Second Question (unrelated to beauty dishes): Suppose I am using a 36-inch circular scrim that I am shooting through outdoors. Will I get more light on my subject if I use the umbrella reflector (180 degrees spread) and move it very close to the shoot-through scrim, or will I get more light if I use the Omni Reflector and move back far enough to fill the 36-inches of the shoot through scrim?

In short, does moving closer trump moving further away but concentrating the light through a reflector?

Thanks in advance.

One more Question:

Will the baby boom offer any sort of advantage if I want to use it with the HOBD and the White Lightning Ultra 600?

I understand that using it with a beauty dish and a regular light stand won't give me nearly the reach as a real boom arm / grip arm on a c-stand would.

I just don't know if the baby boom would give me ANY advantage when used with an ultra 600 and a beauty dish (or omni reflector if I decide to go that way).

Thanks in advance.

The look comes from the size, shape, and quality of light. To get a similar direction of shadows, then the light will need to be positioned similarly.



Using a reflector tightens a beam and concentrates that light into a smaller area. Backing the light off spreads the light over a larger area. Generally speaking, the beam concentration and distance needed to cover a given area are inversely proportional.

However, beam spread is specified from the center of the beam out to -1f. Some reflectors have a gradual fall off past that, while others have a hard fall off. Assuming you are using the specified beam spread to fill the area of the scrim, reflectors with a sharper fall off and backed off will have more light on the scrim, as the other reflectors close in will have feathered light falling to the sides of the scrim. It is hard to say exactly how much this will really affect things, but is likely splitting hairs when comparing the 8.5, 11, 18, 22, and probably even the 7 inch reflectors (the first four having fairly sharp falloff).

Wide spread reflectors like the white beauty dish, 7UR, and those with front diffusion fabrics will spread light to the sides of the scrim at just about any distance. I would say then to bring the light closer to the scrim, but not so close as to create an unwanted hot spot (too close and you will get a falloff due to the difference in distance from the reflector to the middle of the scrim vs the edges).

You will get more range of motion in the down direction. The Ultras have a rail mounting system that allow the mount to be all the way to the front of the light, all the way back, or anywhere in between. As you tilt the light down with the dish on it, the dish will hit the light stand if mounted directly. The arm will extend the hinge point away from the stand, and with the adjustable mount on the Ultra, you could probably aim the dish almost straight down.

A full boom arm would allow almost any position you wanted. I would suggest if going with a boom or C stand to invest in a baby drop down pin. For one easy installment of about $15, you will re position the stand mount in a vertical axis (though upside down). This prevents gravity's pull on modifiers from torquing the light around the stud on the boom arm and redirects the torque to the stand mount.